Cleveland vs Golden St (Finals)

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#1 May 27, 2017 9:00pm
V-Ice
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Cleveland vs Golden St (Finals)

Who will win and why?

May 27, 2017 9:49pm
Mistwell
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I hope Cleveland wins. First, I hate the Warriors.  Second it will make Kobe fans cry if Lebron gets another right. But, I expect the Warriors will win. 

May 27, 2017 10:20pm
htownfan
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Mistwell wrote:

I hope Cleveland wins. First, I hate the Warriors.  Second it will make Kobe fans cry if Lebron gets another right. But, I expect the Warriors will win. 

What he said...except I believe Cleveland will still win... I think Lebron will show why he will definitely be mentioned as GOAT after this series....especially if they split the first 2 games...BTW didnt the finals change back to the the 2-2-1-1-1 format??

May 28, 2017 7:16am
trapp76
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Let's go Cavs.

May 28, 2017 9:31am
VFHS
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Mistwell wrote:

I hope Cleveland wins. First, I hate the Warriors.  Second it will make Kobe fans cry if Lebron gets another right.

Agreed - except I think LeBron will get it done.

May 28, 2017 10:21am
Clipps
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LeBron is playing like he's on a mission. A key player will proaby go down for the Cavs and the Warriors will walk right through the finish line.
May 29, 2017 8:40am
Clippers1121
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Warriors win this thing in five games.  They are the deeper and more talented team.  Of course I would love for the Cavs to repeat but the numbers just don't support it happening.  Durant is a big advantage that the Warriors did not have last year and the Cavs are virtually the same team.  Plus, Green probably will not get his ass kicked out of any games this year.  Hate to see the coward Kevin Durant get rewarded for being a traitor but that is exactly what is going to happen.

May 29, 2017 9:42am
V-Ice
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I just can't envision Bron losing a series...

May 29, 2017 9:43am
V-Ice
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Plus Kyrie w make Steph work on defense.

May 29, 2017 9:53am
trapp76
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Durant is going to be the difference. Warriors win the series in 7.

I really hope I'm wrong though.

May 29, 2017 9:56am
trapp76
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V-Ice wrote:

Plus Kyrie w make Steph work on defense.

Curry never guards good players, he can't. He's not a two way player like CP is.

Klay will guard Kyrie. They will try and hide Curry defensively on Cleveland's worst offensive player (Smith, Korver, etc.).

May 29, 2017 11:23am
dane
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As Henry Kissinger said years ago of the Iran-Iraq war-- the true tragedy of this war is that both sides cannot lose.

May 29, 2017 11:34am
Hitnrun24
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The numbers favor the Warriors when you look at it that way. The only thing that could cross them up is everything has been so easy for them that when Cleveland puts them in adversity they might not be ready for it. Durant and Curry have a good thing going, but most of it has been in low pressure situations, that's the X factor and Lebron and Kyrie being mentally tougher. Otherwise yeah they added Durant to a 73 win team, they shouldn't lose and I think Steph may finally be ready to have a big Finals.

May 29, 2017 1:59pm
uncle pumblechook
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dane wrote:

As Henry Kissinger said years ago of the Iran-Iraq war-- the true tragedy of this war is that both sides cannot lose.

though in that case they did.

May 29, 2017 6:15pm
dane
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uncle pumblechook wrote:

dane wrote:

As Henry Kissinger said years ago of the Iran-Iraq war-- the true tragedy of this war is that both sides cannot lose.

though in that case they did.

Yeah, that, alas, is life, not sports.  Too bad!

May 29, 2017 8:58pm
bighugeballer52
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I got the warriors winning in 6. I hope Cleveland can pull it off but after being down 3-1 last year they were lucky to pull off the championship. Now Harrison Barnes and Boguts minutes go to Durant , big advantage warriors. 

Only chance the cavs have is to make JR smith and Shumpert offense juggernauts against curry.

May 30, 2017 1:35am
Clipps
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I got Cavs in OT. BOOM!!!
May 30, 2017 1:36am
Clipps
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I got Cavs in OT. BOOM
May 30, 2017 8:49am
Clippers1121
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I am going to Vegas today and I was going to bet this series.  But it looks like the odds are -270 in favor of the Warriors.  I wish it were more like -200.  It would be worth it to bet 10k on the Warriors and get back 15k.  But putting up almost 11k to get back only 15k is just not worth it to me (That is putting up 10k to win 5k or putting up 10.8k to win 4k).  So I will not be betting the series.  First game is Warriors -7.  I don't like this either.  Never know how the first game is going to go.  And if you give points in basketball you are always betting on some meaningless shot at the end of the game instead of who actually wins or loses the game.  Been there and done that.  Not for me.  Not sure if the Cavs cover or not on Thursday although I think they will lose the game.  I guess I could put a C note on the Cavs just for the fun of it.  Who knows.

May 30, 2017 10:46am
Mistwell
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So let's say Warriors win the series convincingly and relatively easily (which I doubt but it could happen).  Assume they re-sign everyone and there is no reason to think they won't continue to win it at that level for the next several years.

Name me a team other than the Cavs who should not start a re-build, if your standard is Championship or Bust?

May 30, 2017 11:10am
mannycoon
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Spurs and Rockets have shown they can get quality players without doing a rebiild, so they might as well keep doing that. Jazz too probably considering how low they drafted guys like Gobert and Hood. Celtics have high picks already so they can probably just go with that. A lot of teams already rebuilding dont need to rebuild anymore than they already are.
May 30, 2017 11:49am
Mistwell
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mannycoon wrote:
Spurs and Rockets have shown they can get quality players without doing a rebiild

"Quality players" is meaningless.

Either they can get the players needed to beat the Warriors, or they cannot.  IF your view is championship or bust, "quality players" is just another way of saying WCF exit.

Quote:
A lot of teams already rebuilding dont need to rebuild anymore than they already are.

Believe it or not, some draft picks end up being busts.  Rebuilding teams almost always continue some portion of the rebuild for the entire time until they're contending. 

I'm seriously arguing that the logical conclusion of you guys on the "Championship or Rebuild" wagon is they entire fucking league would be rebuilding other than the Warriors or possibly the Cavs. And competing with the entire league to rebuild is futile - it means nobody would successfully rebuild because everyone wants the same players and same assets and wants to ditch the same players and liabilities. 

May 30, 2017 12:32pm
trapp76
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Mistwell wrote:

mannycoon wrote:
Spurs and Rockets have shown they can get quality players without doing a rebiild

"Quality players" is meaningless.

Either they can get the players needed to beat the Warriors, or they cannot.  IF your view is championship or bust, "quality players" is just another way of saying WCF exit.

Quote:
A lot of teams already rebuilding dont need to rebuild anymore than they already are.

Believe it or not, some draft picks end up being busts.  Rebuilding teams almost always continue some portion of the rebuild for the entire time until they're contending. 

I'm seriously arguing that the logical conclusion of you guys on the "Championship or Rebuild" wagon is they entire fucking league would be rebuilding other than the Warriors or possibly the Cavs. And competing with the entire league to rebuild is futile - it means nobody would successfully rebuild because everyone wants the same players and same assets and wants to ditch the same players and liabilities. 

I agree with you, but I don't think Manny is one of the guys arguing for that.

May 30, 2017 1:36pm
ClipperSisyphus
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Mistwell wrote:

So let's say Warriors win the series convincingly and relatively easily (which I doubt but it could happen).  Assume they re-sign everyone and there is no reason to think they won't continue to win it at that level for the next several years.

Name me a team other than the Cavs who should not start a re-build, if your standard is Championship or Bust?

There are really 3 options every team has: double down to build a superteam around a current all star, stand pat or blow up the team to rebuild around youth.

Most teams will stand pat with their current roster and draft picks, not trying to pay the luxury tax and will just wait out until LeBron retires.

The only teams I can see where it is worth to double down are the Celtics and Spurs. The Cs have cap room and trade assets where they could bring in two all stars. The Spurs could get someone to replace Parker but would have to give up assets.

Is it worth it for the Clipps to double down? As I showed in another thread, resigning CP and Blake and trading for Carmelo would put total salary and luxury tax over $200 million. Why would they do that? Could they beat the Cavs and Warriors? Probably not when 3 starters are over 30. Then the window for this team would be only 2 seasons before the over 30 guys start to decline. Then they are looking at five bad years just to get back high draft picks, then another five years for the talent to develop.

Should the Clips "blow it up" and get rid of everyone for draft picks? No one has proposed that. At the least, the team needs to choose either CP or Blake, not both, and use the savings to build a more balanced roster.

May 30, 2017 1:41pm
Mistwell
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ClipperSisyphus wrote:

Should the Clips "blow it up" and get rid of everyone for draft picks? No one has proposed that. 

On the contrary. Several posters have proposed that. I mean, what else is "Let Redick walk. Sign CP3 and BG, then later trade each of them and DJ for draft picks and expiring contracts." How is that not "blow it up for draft picks"?

May 30, 2017 1:56pm
trapp76
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ClipperSisyphus wrote:

Mistwell wrote:

So let's say Warriors win the series convincingly and relatively easily (which I doubt but it could happen).  Assume they re-sign everyone and there is no reason to think they won't continue to win it at that level for the next several years.

Name me a team other than the Cavs who should not start a re-build, if your standard is Championship or Bust?

There are really 3 options every team has: double down to build a superteam around a current all star, stand pat or blow up the team to rebuild around youth.

Most teams will stand pat with their current roster and draft picks, not trying to pay the luxury tax and will just wait out until LeBron retires.

The only teams I can see where it is worth to double down are the Celtics and Spurs. The Cs have cap room and trade assets where they could bring in two all stars. The Spurs could get someone to replace Parker but would have to give up assets.

Is it worth it for the Clipps to double down? As I showed in another thread, resigning CP and Blake and trading for Carmelo would put total salary and luxury tax over $200 million. Why would they do that? Could they beat the Cavs and Warriors? Probably not when 3 starters are over 30. Then the window for this team would be only 2 seasons before the over 30 guys start to decline. Then they are looking at five bad years just to get back high draft picks, then another five years for the talent to develop.

Should the Clips "blow it up" and get rid of everyone for draft picks? No one has proposed that. At the least, the team needs to choose either CP or Blake, not both, and use the savings to build a more balanced roster.

You don't understand the value of a star player in the NBA..........and any rule you have for the Spurs should also apply to the Clippers. They are in very similar situations.

Celtics are in their own unique situation.

May 30, 2017 2:10pm
mannycoon
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Both the Spurs and Rockets acquired their superstar players without doing full rebuild.
May 30, 2017 2:18pm
ClipperSisyphus
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trapp76 wrote:

ClipperSisyphus wrote:

Mistwell wrote:

So let's say Warriors win the series convincingly and relatively easily (which I doubt but it could happen).  Assume they re-sign everyone and there is no reason to think they won't continue to win it at that level for the next several years.

Name me a team other than the Cavs who should not start a re-build, if your standard is Championship or Bust?

There are really 3 options every team has: double down to build a superteam around a current all star, stand pat or blow up the team to rebuild around youth.

Most teams will stand pat with their current roster and draft picks, not trying to pay the luxury tax and will just wait out until LeBron retires.

The only teams I can see where it is worth to double down are the Celtics and Spurs. The Cs have cap room and trade assets where they could bring in two all stars. The Spurs could get someone to replace Parker but would have to give up assets.

Is it worth it for the Clipps to double down? As I showed in another thread, resigning CP and Blake and trading for Carmelo would put total salary and luxury tax over $200 million. Why would they do that? Could they beat the Cavs and Warriors? Probably not when 3 starters are over 30. Then the window for this team would be only 2 seasons before the over 30 guys start to decline. Then they are looking at five bad years just to get back high draft picks, then another five years for the talent to develop.

Should the Clips "blow it up" and get rid of everyone for draft picks? No one has proposed that. At the least, the team needs to choose either CP or Blake, not both, and use the savings to build a more balanced roster.

You don't understand the value of a star player in the NBA..........and any rule you have for the Spurs should also apply to the Clippers. They are in very similar situations.

Celtics are in their own unique situation.

Spurs and Clips are night and day. Spurs have a system and find players to fit the system. Clips were CP, Blake and DJ when Doc arrived and Doc has spent four seasons trying to build around them.

Neither CP, Blake or DJ are franchise players that you build around. If you were to bring over someone like Paul George, James Harden or Westbrook, they would become the leading scorer. If neither CP, Blake or DJ are franchise players, why give each of them the max when it would mean having a weak supporting cast of rotating vet minimum guys and not being able to develop players through the draft?

 

May 30, 2017 2:46pm
V-Ice
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On the radio last night, they were saying how Boston needs a C to block shot and rebounds.. they were giving easy layups or put backs. 

May 30, 2017 2:55pm
Clipps
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I think I'm getting called out again. I'll admit that signing everyone just to trade them for draft picks and assets is mainly a knee jerk reaction after the most frustrating season I have witnessed since I became a Clippers fan. But the Clippers have been on a decline since Doc has taken over as coach and GM, and all of the assets the Clippers once had are now gone and the Clippers are in an awful position right now. That's not "moaning and whining" about the Clippers. That's stating the obvious. I always used to be very optimistic about the Clippers in the past because there was a lot to be optimistic about when Blake was drafted, when Caron and Billups signed with the team, when CP got traded here, when CP signed that long term, when the Clippers aquired Doc(at the time). Well, the Clippers did not take that next step from good team to great team like they were expected to do. 3 all-stars, a top 5 3 point shooter, a defensive monster, and a perennial 6 man of the year, and nothing but disappointment to show from it. Now with no cap space, no draft picks, with 3 of the 4 best players becoming unrestricted free agents, It's looking a bit bliek right now, might be the end of an era. I wont sit here pretending everything is great right now. Whether you sign CP, Blake and JJ or not, the Clippers are still have zero cap space. It would definitely be foolish to let them all go for nothing because the Clippers will become the Nets of the West.

 

No one can argue that this team is flawed though and does need some fine tuning. CP and Blake have not shown to have great chemistry together and they always get hurt. DJ is a one dimensional player that has major weaknesses that no one on the team can cover and the team as a whole is undersized at almost every position with a coach who likes to play undersized 2's at SF. The team needs to get bigger and longer and the team needs a wing scorer. Team needs more consistent outside shooters. Team needs to get younger. The Clippers are a mess right now and I'm sure a lot of NBA players see that. No one will take a giant paycut to play for the Clippers with or without Blake, CP, and JJ. That's why I proposed signing them, and trading them later for draft picks and pieces if the team continues to decline. At the same time, it's not completely farfetched to re-sign everyone, CP has a healthy season, Blake steps up and has a monster season and DJ shoots above 50% and Doc find a way to sign some good role players. One thing is for sure is all of that rests in the hands of Blake, CP, and JJ. CP is sick of losing in the playoffs and might join San Antonio. They would have to gut their roster to make room for CP but Pop has shown he can turn scrubs into valuable rotational players. I don't think Blake is going anywhere, and JJ is wanting top dollar for what he is worth. He's an undersized system shooter. He's not worth 20 million. Clippers have no shooters outside of JJ. But it's also possible that all 3 leave the Clippers high and dry. Sign and trading later is not just for draft picks. It can be for anything.

 

This whole "welp, the Spurs and Rockets can't beat the Warriors either, might as well blow it up". Those teams look like they have a lot more upside than the Clippers do right now. I doubt I'm saying anything groundbreaking our out of this world in my little novel that I just wrote. At the end of the day, I don't care what the Spurs or Rockets do at all.

 

May 30, 2017 3:17pm
WindsorUK
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Are they actually ever going to PLAY the finals? There hasn't been a game, in what,  a week? This is a longer break than the all star one.

Theoretically, should the finals go 7 games, when do they finish?