2017 - 2018 Rookie Of The Year Debate.

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#1 Apr 11, 2018 3:54pm
nuraman00
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2017 - 2018 Rookie Of The Year Debate.

www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23119733/kobe-bryant-adds-rookie-year-debate

 

 

 

 

That's an Adidas sponsored shirt btw.

I wonder what clothing manufacturer Ben Simmons is represented by.

You can find the Adidas logo here.  I didn't use this pic because it was grainier.


cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/fMWeawFhAXop67lKWoNU0-ImBrU=/1400x1050/filters:format(png)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10627009/Screen_Shot_2018_04_10_at_8.06.55_PM.png

 

 

About when to consider someone a rookie:


How do you handle David Robinson? He joined his team 2 years later because of his commitments to the Navy.

What about Jerry Lucas? He decided to play in the ABA instead, for a year. He was drafted in 1962.

After that, he joined his NBA team, the Royals, in 1963.

NBA Rookie of the Year Award - Wikipedia

How do you distinguish someone who has spent a year with the team, like Ben Simmons and Blake Griffin, vs. Jerry Lucas (who played in the ABA instead of the NBA) and David Robinson (who was not around the team)?

Maybe they can say something like your rookie year starts the minute you sign that rookie contract. That way, you can't be around the team until you sign the contract.

But now I see that David Robinson actually signed in 1987! LOL. Maybe he should have held off until 1989.

But then what if he got hurt at the Navy?

Still, I guess it's a better system.

It would have eliminated Griffin and Simmons from being rookies because they signed their contracts and were around the team while hurt.

And maybe Jerry Lucas could have waited to sign the contract until he was ready to play in the NBA. Actually it appears Jerry Lucas was drafted by both the ABA and NBA, and he chose the ABA first in 1962.

So he still could have chosen the ABA in 1962, then switched to the NBA, the other league that had drafted him, in 1963.

 

 

 

Apr 11, 2018 5:52pm
mannycoon
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Its pretty established that guys like Simmons have counted as rookies for rookie of the year up to this point, dont see any reason to change it now.
Apr 11, 2018 9:58pm
Clipps
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I don't like calling rookies who missed their original rookie season 'rookies,' but it is what it is. While injured, the rookie still gets to be around the environment, night life, workouts, games, learn bits and pieces from actual pros, coaches, world class trainers, receive the best of the best medical treatment etc. and not even have to worry about college, AND getting paid a couple million. Guys like Blake and Simmons have a clear advantage over the 'normal' rookie. Did Blake have to get the rookie treatment from his team mates both seasons? Would be funny if he did. It was something I always thought about since Blake's lost rookie season. Maybe that's why guys like Simmons and Blake averaged historic rookie numbers. If Blake didn't get injured, would he have averaged 20 and 12 in his actual rookie season?

Apr 11, 2018 10:09pm
datlbn1p
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Just make them both Co rookie of the year

Apr 12, 2018 10:12am
nuraman00
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datlbn1p wrote:

Just make them both Co rookie of the year

 

That would only happen if the voting is tied.

 

That only happened in 1971, 1995, and 2000.

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/roy.html

Apr 12, 2018 12:58pm
Hitnrun24
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It is an advantage to basically have a red shirt rookie season, but this is silly. Mitchell played an extra year in college than Simmons so should that be factored too because getting 2 years after high school is definitely an advantage to a 1 and done.

Apr 12, 2018 1:01pm
Dyce
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Simmons earned it.

Apr 12, 2018 1:04pm
nuraman00
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Hitnrun24 wrote:

It is an advantage to basically have a red shirt rookie season, but this is silly. Mitchell played an extra year in college than Simmons so should that be factored too because getting 2 years after high school is definitely an advantage to a 1 and done.

 

NBA competition, video coordinators, etc. are much better than the college ones.  Plus you can spend more time learning in the NBA, whereas I believe their are hour restrictions in college.

 

I also think the NBA's competition level being superior is one reason why it's more popular in regions that also have good college basketball teams.

 

Whereas with football, I think the level of competition is good in college, and in some ways different.  So both college football and the NFL can be popular in the same region.  I think the scheduling is atrocious in college football, because athletic directors try to game the system and schedule opponents who arrive in body bags, or are 3 timezones away with early start times.  But that's a different issue.  

 

G-league competition is probably better than college basketball competition.

 

But, all of this can vary based on someone's opinion (as you and mannycoon have stated your views).

Apr 12, 2018 1:14pm
nuraman00
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John Wall, who was in this same spot, says give it to both.

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/john-wall-famously-robbed-rookie-165757820.html

Apr 12, 2018 2:47pm
mannycoon
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The cut off now is cut and dry, either you've stepped on the NBA floor or not. Otherwise you are comparing several different possibilities, 4 year college, 1 and done, top level Euro experience like Milos or Doncic, lower level Euro experience or China, G-League, season missed to injury, all rookies aren't created equal and there seem to be more possible pathways to the league than ever before.
Apr 12, 2018 3:21pm
V-Ice
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Wait, I thought Lonzo was the best rookie this season?? I’m confused .
Apr 12, 2018 3:43pm
datlbn1p
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Lonzo was the best defensive rookie imo

Apr 12, 2018 5:27pm
Hitnrun24
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Simmons was easily the best defensive rookie, which is why his ROY case is so strong

Apr 12, 2018 6:38pm
JGlanton
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Should be Simmons in a landslide, followed by Tatum and Collins. But, no.

Mitchell will get a  lot of votes because he scored the most, which is always the most important factor to dumb voters.

Josh Hart and Lonzo Ball were both good rookies.

There were a lot of good rookies this year.

Apr 12, 2018 7:10pm
Mistwell
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No Milos votes? Sad trombone. 

Apr 12, 2018 8:09pm
tullabye
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Lonzo wasn’t even the best rookie on the Lakers. He was a disappointment as the 2nd pick and will probably always be. Simmons and Mitchell are true leader super rookies ( no one else even close) and a co award would be appropriate. Both teams overachieved because of them. It’s kind of like a Pulp Fiction and Forest Gump matchup.
Apr 12, 2018 9:03pm
Mistwell
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So you guys think the best rookie actually drafted last year was the 13th pick? Followed by the 3rd and 10th pick,  with mention of the 2nd and the 30th pick?

Wow. So last year was in your view a massive crap shoot?

 

Apr 13, 2018 11:39am
nuraman00
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I'm not as impressed with Simmons assists, the way I was Lebron James' assists.  Or Roy's assists.

 

But, this goes beyond Simmons.  There's a lot of players that don't impress me with their assists.  Simmons gets a lot of assists because of the pace of play.  I place more of an emphasis on halfcourt assists.

 

From a fantasy perspective, I'm not surprised by what Simmons did.  I took him in the 3rd and 4th round in the leagues that I could.

 

Hopefully Philly is matched with a threat that Simmons has to put some effort into guarding, in the playoffs.  It would be good to see him and Antetokounmpo guard each other in the 2nd round.  Miami isn't the right matchup for Simmons, so I won't learn anything about his defense in this round.  Whiteside vs. Embiid would be good if they guarded each other.

 

Most of the time though, the guys I want guarding each other don't do it unless it's situationally, because of the BS cross matching that happens.  That didn't use to happen very much in previous eras.  Guys learned how to guard the opposing best scorer or ball handler, and still stay out of foul trouble, and still have offensive responsibility, most of the time.

 

I'll get to the playoffs thoughts later, either if someone creates a thread, or I'll do it later.

Apr 13, 2018 11:40am
nuraman00
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Mistwell wrote:

So you guys think the best rookie actually drafted last year was the 13th pick? Followed by the 3rd and 10th pick,  with mention of the 2nd and the 30th pick?

Wow. So last year was in your view a massive crap shoot?

 

 

I haven't thought about ranking the rookies yet.

Apr 13, 2018 12:02pm
nuraman00
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Hitnrun24 wrote:

It is an advantage to basically have a red shirt rookie season, but this is silly. Mitchell played an extra year in college than Simmons so should that be factored too because getting 2 years after high school is definitely an advantage to a 1 and done.

 

My proposal would be that the rookie clock starts when you sign the contract.

 

So Jerry Lucas or Markanen or Jose Calderon or Bogdan Bogdanovic (the Kings guy, not the Pacers guy) would still be rookies the same way they were in the past.  

 

I think a combination of off the court life skills, as well as the training and coaching, during an injury red shirt year, help prepare a guy during that 2nd year when he plays his first game, after the injury.

 

Here's what radio host Damon Bruce said (who doesn't broadcast in a Jazz market):

 

++++++++++++

 


He said, during the past year, Mitchell learned:

* How to negotiate a NBA contract.
* How to deal with ticket requests.
* How to deal with money.
* How to travel and pack.
* How to deal with women.
* Seeing teams for the first time.

Bruce focused on a lot of the off-the-court experiences Mitchell learned this year, while he said Simmons has already had a chance to experience them last year.

 

++++++++++++++++

 

Would Griffin or Simmons still have been ready on the court, if they were experiencing ticket requests; NBA traveling; and women; and money for the first time?

 

Then you add in the learning just by being around a NBA trainers and coaching staff.  They've had a year to understand how they're supposed to play in the NBA, vs. wherever they played before.

 

Milos; Calderon; Arvydas Sabonis; Markanen all had to deal with the same adjustment to the NBA lifestyle that Mitchell did, so that's why they're still rookies.  

 

To me, the difference being that their ages or previous experience doesn't matter as much, as much as the adjustment to the NBA travel, lifestyle, media attention, and coaching.  So Ichiro was still a rookie in MLB because it's different coming from international play to the MLB.  Just the difference in media attention, and using translators, is different.

 

I'm fine with giving it to Simmons this year because of the rules.  But, if they were to consider altering it, I think my suggestion is ok.

 

Mitchell's FG% fell off after December.  And his steals varied a little too at times.

 

Simmons FG% got better during the season.

Apr 13, 2018 12:49pm
VFHS
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Mistwell wrote:

So you guys think the best rookie actually drafted last year was the 13th pick? Followed by the 3rd and 10th pick,  with mention of the 2nd and the 30th pick?

Wow. So last year was in your view a massive crap shoot?

 

Personally, I think Simmons deserves it. Just keep it simple: a player doesn't stop being a rookie until they've played a season in the NBA.

Out of all the Rookies of the Year in NBA history, 21 of them have been drafted 1st overall - soon to be 22 when Simmons wins it this year. 15 have been drafted 2nd overall. In contrast, only six Rookies of the Year have ever been drafted outside of the top 10. That doesn't suggest that the draft is a "crapshoot" - it actually suggests the opposite.

Apr 13, 2018 1:07pm
nuraman00
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How about what is the average draft position for rookie of the year, 2nd place, and 3rd place?

Apr 13, 2018 1:37pm
Mistwell
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VFHS wrote:

Mistwell wrote:

So you guys think the best rookie actually drafted last year was the 13th pick? Followed by the 3rd and 10th pick,  with mention of the 2nd and the 30th pick?

Wow. So last year was in your view a massive crap shoot?

 

Personally, I think Simmons deserves it. Just keep it simple: a player doesn't stop being a rookie until they've played a season in the NBA.

Out of all the Rookies of the Year in NBA history, 21 of them have been drafted 1st overall - soon to be 22 when Simmons wins it this year. 15 have been drafted 2nd overall. In contrast, only six Rookies of the Year have ever been drafted outside of the top 10. That doesn't suggest that the draft is a "crapshoot" - it actually suggests the opposite.

I was referring specifically to last years draft and not NBA drafts in general. Simmons was not drafted last year so he's irrelevant to that question. What's happened in past years is euqally irrelevant to that question. 

So do you think LAST YEAR'S NBA DRAFT was a massive crap shoot?

Apr 13, 2018 4:16pm
Hitnrun24
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I wouldn't count out the top 3 picks yet. Mitchell will undoubtedly be one the best players from this draft, but I wouldn't bet my life that he'll be the best when all is said and done.

Apr 13, 2018 9:44pm
datlbn1p
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Tatum and Markkanen> Mitchell

Apr 19, 2018 7:46am
ClipsAhoy
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Going out on a limb, Mitchell will be a top 5 player in the NBA at some point.

Apr 19, 2018 11:26am
mannycoon
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Is Mitchell's game well rounded enough for that? He should be a great scorer but there seem to a lot of guys these days that can score, rebound, pass and defend or at least 3 of those four things.
Apr 19, 2018 12:34pm
nuraman00
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mannycoon wrote:
Is Mitchell's game well rounded enough for that? He should be a great scorer but there seem to a lot of guys these days that can score, rebound, pass and defend or at least 3 of those four things.

 

He's not well rounded yet.

 

He's not going to be a playmaker.

 

But, he can be a versatile scorer, and he can keep improving his defense.  He isn't guarding Westbrook most of the time, but he's doing a reasonable job with how the possessions develop.